Conversations with Kimeron
One of the things I regularly do is to check my Google Analytics and see info about my blog. Back in March, I realized that I was getting traffic from a site that I’d never heard of before. I checked it out and found a blog from Dr. Kimeron Hardin, a “clinical psychologist specializing in improving health, wellness and self-esteem.” He’s also the author of several books called, “Loving Ourselves: The Gay and Lesbian Guide to Self-Esteem, Queer Blues: The Lesbian and Gay Guide to Overcoming Depression, and The Chronic Pain Control Workbook, Second Edition.” As his profile states, “his passion is helping the LGBTQ community learn to overcome the effects of living in a homophobic and heterocentrist society so that they can live happier and healthier lives.”
Obviously, Kimeron is an openly gay man and has devoted much of his time to writing about this. He linked one of my blog posts in an article as a Christian perspective to a topic he was addressing. At first, I was a little surprised by the randomness of this. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized that there was a great opportunity here.
I believe that when it comes to the topic of homosexuality, the Church collectively has done a very poor job in responding like Christ. I also believe that it will be even more important for the Church to respond appropriately in the future as this becomes more and more of a topic in the mainstream. As a result, I decided to email Kimeron and see if he’d be willing to establish a dialogue so that we can openly talk and learn from each other even if we see things differently. Like Central teaches, you can belong before you believe. With that said, here are parts of our first emails and I hope that this creates a healthy environment for the Church to learn how to respond better in love. As I’ve always thought, it’s pretty hard to intelligently speak about an issue like homosexuality when you don’t even know anyone who is gay.
Dr. Hardin,
My name is Jeremy and I’m a teaching pastor at Central Christian Church in Arizona. I’m also the author of the blog, tomorrowsreflection.com, which you referenced in your post called “The Dark Side” on March 15. I’m not sure how you found my blog, but as a result of your link I found yours. All of this to say that I would be interested in beginning a dialogue with you about the issues that you are passionate about. I’ll admit that we probably approach the topic of homosexuality from very different viewpoints. However, I don’t personally know many openly gay people and I would like to know more about your perspective and better understand how you see things. I believe that this is a topic that the Church (collectively) hasn’t handled well and I believe will be an even greater issue in the future.
You may be interested in hearing a pastor’s perspective or at least sharing your thoughts with one. I have no desire to preach to you or try and get you to think differently, I’m simply offering the chance to learn from each other. I realize this email is probably catching you totally off guard and for that I apologize. If you have no desire to talk with me about this, then no worries. If you do, then I’d be glad to learn more and try and understand a different perspective than mine.
Jeremy
Here is (part of) his response:
Hi Jeremy!
Wow! I am so impressed with your email! I really appreciate that kind of honesty.
I found your blog by searching for anything on Jesus and the money changers so that I could more accurately reference that part of Christian teaching in my blog. I try not to misrepresent the church’s perspectives when I talk about it in my blogs, even if I vehemently disagree sometimes with a point of view. My goal has never been to eliminate the church, but to expose what I find are inherent contradictions between what it says at times and how it practices what it preaches, something I believe your particular church appears to support.
I found a lot of wonderful messages in the Bible and the church as I was growing up immersed in Sunday School, general services and my time as a “Christian Youth Crusader” as we called it. But, my budding sexuality as a gay man created much conflict in my relationship to organized religion since I found in my own experiences, my personal relationship with God, and within the scripture itself that some of the mainstream teachings about homosexuality were anything but Christ-like.
I have spent much of my adult life doing my own personal thinking, reflection and studying about how I can personally resolve the contradictions within the Bible itself, various forms of organized religion, and my own personal experiences and beliefs. Obviously, I tend to favor Christian theology that is more progressive and less literal, and in my own opinion, more true to the example of Jesus Christ himself rather than the layers of interpretation that humans have added throughout the years.
And, I have met some wonderful Christians who I believe embody the essence of Christ as a loving, peaceful and compassionate person which makes me hopeful. I would be happy to be a gay friend to you and have a dialogue if it would be helpful to you or someone else who might be struggling.
Let me know where to go from here. Thank you so much for your message!
Kimeron
April 23rd, 2009 at 1:56 PM
Jeremy,
I absolutely love your willingness not only to seek out the connection, but also to pursue it as a friendship/educational point as well. I also feel strongly that as both you and Kimeron stated that the church has done a short sighted job in maintaining or building our relationships with the homosexual community. I agree much as I imagine yourself to do as well that the Bible speaks clearly on certain issues within this subject, but I don’t see any reason scripturaly that should prevent or prohibit us as a body from reaching out to our brothers and sisters in the gay community and learning to relate, interact, and understand them and their point of view. Ultimately, much like anything else, we fear what we do not know, and as a Church (collectively) we unfortunately do not know much about our gay brothers and sisters. I feel strongly that if we were to take a more aggressive approach in seeking mutual relationships with one another (gay and straight) that we would begin to know others better not to mention ourselves as well. I can imagine the benefit of these sorts of efforts in building relationships would go along way in being able for us the body, the Church, to share and show a more accurate picture of Christ to this often misunderstood community. I am anxious to see where your conversations go from here!
April 23rd, 2009 at 3:47 PM
First of all, I’m excited to read about your conversation with Dr. Harding. This issue is one, that I personally believe, is going to be an integral part of where the church goes in the next fifty to a hundred years. The church has given this topic little to no interest. I’m with you, and don’t know too many openly homosexual people. The experiences that I have had have been with people that have been completely thrown out of the church because their lifestyle choice. No love, no grace, only hatred and no dialogue. I’m excited to see where this goes.
Z
April 23rd, 2009 at 5:16 PM
Thank you so much for pursueing this Jeremy. I completely agree with you. I think Kimeron (cool name) is going t give us some great insight into this. I can’t wait to see were this goes.
April 23rd, 2009 at 8:08 PM
Kudos to you, Jeremy! I am also looking forward to reading more about this.
Have a great day.
April 24th, 2009 at 9:34 AM
Hi Jeremy,
I came across your website because it came up in a Google Alert I set on this topic. I am going home this weekend to the church I was raised in to participate in a three-part forum about homosexuality and the church. I’m so very proud of my congregation for being progressive and tackling controversial topics like this one. It has been interesting to learn more about the debate between those who interpret the bible literally and those who have adapted to the culture of our time. As a gay man, I feel the battle is already lost. Love and equal rights will prevail, it’s just a matter of when. As more people come out and speak out, people will realize how their bigotry, hatred, and discrimination impacts the very people they care about. They will realize that the people they know are good, decent, loving people and that if god thought homosexuality was so wrong he never would have created us this way. Jesus would be so very disappointed to see the majority not extending their love and care to the minority, in this case. But, in time, this to shall pass and I respect those who stand on the right side of this issue.
For sure we will see more-and-more states pass same-sex marriage bills too because of the separation of church and state. Regardless of what a congregation thinks, it’s not for them to decide about state contracts for issues of property, end of life issues, etc. Anti-discrimination laws and lawsuits will advance this fight for equal rights, as it should.
Thanks for starting this converation!
April 24th, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Mark,
I’m so glad that you found my blog and that you’ve shared your perspective. I’m glad to see that there are others on both sides of this issue that want to see how the Church can respond better to this in the future. I hope that you’ll to continue to give us your feedback as we address this topic more in the future.
April 24th, 2009 at 2:30 PM
I am encouraged by the lack of inflammatory remarks to this post. Call me a pessimist, but I pretty much expected the fundies to come out in full force for this one
. Good job, this seems like the beginning of a pretty cool conversation.
April 26th, 2009 at 2:43 PM
Very cool.
It will be great to see where this goes.
April 27th, 2009 at 10:42 AM
Wow! I’m so impressed with these comments! Thank you all for being so nice! I’m looking forward to the dialogue as well.
May 7th, 2009 at 10:08 PM
Holy Greetings by all Means, it’s all about God’s Grace alone, through His perfectly Holy, Justice and Righteousness.
We need people that will be bold in their efforts in Sharing God’s Life Chaning Word; Acts 4:12.
Warning others about the Judgement of God, to be placed on Sinners and not Good people; Romans 1:18. By all means people need to hear the Whole Counsel of God, by all Means, why there is Judgement, Why God Hates all Sin; PS 5:5.
At the same time being loving towards others, because there is nothing more loving, than warning others about the Judgement too come; John 14:15
The God of the Holy Bible Saves Sinners and Not Good People;, Matthew 9:11-13, Luke 18:19, for there is no such thing as a good person, being apart from God and His Grace Alone.
Read God Holy Word about that issue His Word is clear on that; Romans 3:10-23.
For all Sin is always Vertical First against a Holy Good God; PS 51:4 and all of our own sin, will always separte us from a Just and Loving God, that is Fair with His Justifed Righteouness and Justice.
Romans 1:18-32 and 3:23 are set forth for all human kind, and that is me as well also, With out His Blood to cover my own wickedness and evil Sin, there is No Hope for anyone, who will believe and be Saved from God..
Our best proformances apart from God, are as a Flithy Rag in God’s site; ISA 64:6.
If we think we have Self Righeousness of our own Self, we decieve our own selfs, just like the Bible says we do in; Proverbs 20:6.
By Checking One Self, which I do as well also, because Paul states that we need too.
To see wither or not You are truly in the faith or not; 2 Corithians 13:5. God is not looking for a Buddy, We are created For His mere Pleasure and Glory Rev 4:8, we serve Him, not God serving Man; 1 Corithians 10:31.
I am a Sinner as well also and my sin will every Time separte me from a Holy God; 1 Corinthains 1:29.
Unless God Grants me Saving Faith; 2 Timothy 2:25, and Godly Brokeness into my life; 2 Corinthians 7:8-10 and Godly Repentance from Sin too God; Luke 13:3.
There is No Other Hope; Proverbs 14:12, Christ is the Only Way; John 14:6.
His Grace is a Gift, that Only He alone can Give out, Read Eph 2:8-9 clearly, Grace is His Gift and Not sinful mans. Man apart from God is Dead in His Sin and held to His or her Fallen Bondage of their Fallen will Eph 2:1-3, Romans 5:12.
Only Jesus Christ alone,Is Holy, Separted from Sin and Perfectly Good, for He Knew No Sin; 2 Corithians 5:21.
When a lost Hell Bound sinners is Truly Saved from His Sin and talking about perfection either, they are saved from the Wrath of God too God, the Lord Jesus Christ.
No one can ever Boast and say what they have done; Gal 2:20-21 and 6:14,
The only Living God of the Bible alone gets the Glory alone; Titus 3:5, as it’s His Grace, and His Saving Faith alone, that takes out a Heart of Stone alone.
Man must be Born again to enter the Kingdom of God and Water Baptizsm, or being Baptizsed in Jesus Name Only like in Acts 2:38, Doesn’t save You, or make You Born again; John 5:24, Act’s 2:21, Ezk 36:24-26
About a person being in sexual relationship with in the same sex, God’s Word is were we are too start from, First and formost, if you are one of His sheep, that Follows His Shepard at all cost.
Man Doesn’t live off bread alone Matthew 4:4.
God Created Adam and Eve and it was Good, Very Good Genesis 1:31, if You don’t believe in the Creation account of the Bible of Genesis as being real Histroical evidence,in which, no other Book has been able to stand upon.
For the Bible has been proven too be accurate about is Histrocial Claims of truth.
Then more than likely, you are Lost, still dead spiritualy, not Born Again, not a child of God then, and still in love with your sin, and You have fashioned a god to Your own sinful likeing, of your self decption of calling things Good; ISA 5:20, when God calls it Wickedness; Proverbs 17:15.
Jesus Believes and Taught the Creation account about Adam and Eve; Mark 10:6-8 and anything out side of that will, and always separte you from a Holy God; ISA 59:1-2.
Wither it’s same sexual sinful relationships, or shacking up with one another of the oppsite sex, any sex out side of marriage, will send you to hell, it’s sinful.
Sex is wonderful when it’s between a man and a woman for life, till death do you apart, what a blessing it’s.
A Society based off same sex relationship could not last, and when a Sodomite says they were born gay, or a Homosexual man, must of these people had relationships with the oppsite sex first.
Godly Sorrow over one sins will, lead to Godly Repentance, but their must be a turning away from the sin; Read in 1 Corithains 6:9-10.
What will Keep You out of the Kingdom of God, but when God, by His Mercy and Grace and truth, will bringforth,
A Sinner out of His or Her Spiritual Deadness, for dead people don’t seek God; Romans 3:10-12 and Eph 2:1-3. God in His glory can set them free from their own wicked Bondage of false Hope and self Righeouness and that means that a Homosexual Man, or a Lesbian or any other person, can be set free and indeed; Read 1 Corithains 6:11.
But is clear in His Word, He Resits the proud in heart, for prideful people, don’t think that have offened anyone and everyone owes them something.
But when Broken people see their own wickedness, against a Holy God will be saved, by God change, that God can only Grante, for His Glory alone Luke 7:47, PS 51.
We all are bad people apart from Jesus Christ and that means me as well also; 1 Corithians 6:9-10 , 1 Timothy 1:8-11, Luke 12:4-5.
God will Save all of those Whom will Believe on the Gospel Account and Repent, even while they are in their own Sin Romans 5:8, Thank You Lord Jesus.
As the Bible clearly states apart from You, We All are enemies of God; Romans 8:7-8 and Eph 2:3, only Christ, through His Father can save Sinners and amen.