Craig Gross is the author of a handful of books such as The Gutter, Starving Jesus, and The Dirty Little Secret. Most recently, he just published Jesus Loves You This I Know. He started an incredibly innovative ministry called XXXchurch.com that helps people get free from porn and he is now undertaking a new project called the Strip Church. Craig is incredibly brilliant, and is a spiritual entrepreneur in the very best sense. He dreams big dreams about what God could do and then allows God to do it. I had the opportunity to catch up with Craig on the phone for an Off the Record interview.

Jeremy: Tell us something odd/unique about you.

Craig: This one might get mixed reviews but I’ve never voted. Some people don’t like that but yeah, I’ve never voted. I might have registered to vote when I got my driver’s license. Older generations have used their platforms to influence political movements and agendas but I’ve never been that interested. In these college debates with Ron Jeremy it always seems to be about Democrats vs Republicans and people assume “well you must be over here.” I’ve never taken much interest in that.

Jeremy: You have obviously focused the majority of your time and energy into the porn issue. Was this a struggle for you growing up? How much do you struggle with it now since you are around it so much?

Craig: I remember growing up, I rarely saw porn but was attracted to it. Even graduating at Hope International University – the last year at college I remember five guys huddled around one computer waiting for porn to show up. I could probably count the number of times of being exposed to it. That’s unreal to think about now. This ministry didn’t come out of this huge struggle for porn it was with the youth seeing the need out there. After working with it more in depth, it gets less and less attractive, they aren’t just images they are actual people. I still have filters because it could creep in so easily.

We had a group down in January and one of our guys named Jake started talking to a porn star across from us from us and she remembered us when we used to do Craig and Jake. She had seen us at a Central Christian event [yes, he's referring to our church], because she was in the Junior High group. There is nothing sexy about that at all – and everyone has these stories. When you know those things it really ruins your porn experience. We know that there are people attached to everyone of those images and their stories. It’s a different set of eyes but it’s hard to explain.

Jeremy: Do you think people are born leaders or develop into leaders?
Craig: You can develop or maybe even be forced into leading. I don’t know in every case but from what I’ve seen you can be born with a lot of things but I feel like that’s a quality you not only have to develop but to work and choose to lead. When we started in the early days with XXXchurch, we outsourced everyone, and you don’t really need to lead an outsourced company. Moving from outsourced to staff, we had to be very intentional and be able to really work at leading. With the exception of myself and one other person, all of our staff is under thirty years old. For me, leading doesn’t come natural. I can get a lot of stuff done and be productive but to bring people with you and not run people over is much more challenging.

Jeremy: How can people put themselves into a position to influence culture?
Craig: Sadly, I don’t know how to say it nicely, the Church has lost a lot of its influence on culture. When I was in the redlight district in Amsterdam, the cab driver kept dropping us off at a church building in the center. The driver explained that some stuff moved into the city and ran the church out and now we have the red light district with a boarded up church at the hub of it. On the 11 hour plane ride home, all I could think about was how did that church lose its influence to where it pulled out over time? As the Church, we are just responding and we aren’t influencing. I have been able to do things easier because we don’t have the politics and denominations that a church often does and we don’t have as many rules. In order to influence you have to have to be on the cuff of things often times. So many churches debate getting drums in service or about women baptizing- those decisions take so much time that we aren’t thinking about these major issues that need us because we focused on logistics of church. Instead, let’s take the message anywhere we are able to get in and ask questions, or ask for permission later. The church needs to be more way more aggressive in our approach to reaching people if we want to influence the culture instead of sitting back and waiting for them to come to us. We have kept to our self the whole time, and not that every church is there, but often there is a backwards mentality of “build it and they will come.” You can often find a church on every corner, so it’s not a lack of church but a lack of influence that a lot of churches don’t have these days.

Jeremy: Why are you a follower of Jesus Christ?
Craig: For me, nothing else that I have seen or found can match what I have found in Christ. Yesterday someone asked me about my drive and chasing after things and i explained that everything I do comes out of my relationship for Christ. It all comes back to being able to share what God has done in our lives and sharing that message. I don’t know if I could be as driven and passionate if it was any other business. I talk a lot about porn, but often that conversation leads to a better conversation about Christ. For me, this is what makes sense and this is what I know radically changed my life and haven’t found that in anything else that I have searched after.

Jeremy: What do you do personally to fuel your spiritual life?

Craig: I think its easy to get caught up in the game. We are in the Christian subculture: buildings, numbers, all this other crap, and you can easily lose focus. The other night I was debating Ron Jeremy and we went out to dinner afterward and it was a great chance to connect. One of our interns left on red-eye to catalyst and someone asked why I wasn’t going? And the thinking is that it would be a great place to promote your ministry, and you could sell your books to thousands of people. But I am reminded as I walk back to the restaurant and Ron Jeremy is sleeping at the table since he is exhausted and I thought that this is what is more important than being a main-stage speaker and selling books. Focusing on the opportunity we have right now. It keeps you in check. Relationships that we have been able to develop with people drives not only me but my staff. On Friday we had a meeting with a guy at a strip club (before it opened) who went to seminary and walked away from the Lord and now he is the general manager of this strip club and he jokingly said to me “help get me out of here.” Those people and those relationships fuel me more and centers me as to why we have to keep at it. Seeing God at work in people’s lives that many others have written off. The moment I start checking Amazon book rank sales or checking the PO Box for another check, there is a lot of discouraging stuff. Find those winning moments and camp out there.

Jeremy: What is your hope for the future of the Church in America?
Craig: There is a change with our generation that isn’t going to do things how our parents did. It’s still the bride of Christ. I can have a lot of hope even though I say the church isn’t currently influencing culture, there’s still hope. Especially with times like this with the economy and all of the frustration, church attendance overall is through the roof. People are looking for something else. I’m pretty excited as I see this next generation come after us that is looking at what we’ve done, or what our parents have done and now they are coming up with crazier ideas and concepts that would have freaked us out. If the church can open itself up to change, new direction, new people, new thoughts…its very hopeful. Not just waiting till its too late.

Jeremy: Should we abandon the use of the word “Christian” for a better term? If so, what?
Craig: I think if its the word church for instance, we use church in everything we do (XXXchurch, Strip Church) but we aren’t really a church. Why do we use that term? We have to almost work harder when we are under that umbrella. Same thing with that word Christian, people have to work harder. But I still feel like it’s a conversation worth having.

Jeremy: What blogs/websites do you regularly check?
Craig: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/

http://swerve.lifechurch.tv/

http://marshill.org/teaching/pcast.php

https://twitter.com/cnn

http://www.appsafari.com/fun/4816/tmz-mobile/

Jeremy: Which books have shaped your thinking?

Craig: The E-Myth by Michael Gerber

Roaring Lambs by Bob Briner (provoked a conversation to even start xxxchurch)

The Final Roar by Bob Briner

All of Seth Godin’s books

Getting Things Done by David Allen (was awful as far as reading it but great stuff on management)

Courageous Leadership by Bill Hybels

Jeremy: What music moves you?

Craig: All across the board. The last concerts I’ve been to are Daughtry, Blink 182, Def Leppard, and Jonas Brothers. I got made fun of for wanting to see Kid Rock and Creed. I also wanted to see Mariah Carey. I thought those shows would be fun to see the people there and the crowd. I love Paramore’s new album, John Mayer, and a variety of stuff.

Jeremy: Any other thoughts or advice?

Craig: The Bible says God can do more than anything you could ever imagine and He uses the strangest people. I have seen that over and over again. Often times we psyche ourselves out before we get on the playing field and yet God chooses and wants to use people who are willing not just the most gifted and talented.

I recently met 3 women at a brothel and had lunch with them. They had been having lunch at this brothel for six months and were praying for the women there and even had Easter lunch with all the girls in the brothel. These ladies were older and one was wearing a puff paint shirt and I referred to them as the golden girls (see picture below). There is nothing about how they approached ministry that you would ever think would work. On the other hand, we have all the stuff (bus, shirts) but it’s not about any of that. The fact that these 3 women were challenged in a bible study and went and decided to go pray there. People sit and talk. Talk is cheap. Turn nothing into something. Actually going and doing something is what matters. When God is in it it can make the unthinkable come to life.

Click here to read more Off the Record interviews.

***UPDATE***(Nov. 2009) Click here to see updated posts about Catherine.

Catherine Rohr gave up a six figure job on Wall Street to pour her life into convicts. There’s a story you don’t hear about everyday. She founded Prison Entrepreneurship Program (PEP) and now she is being the Church to a group of people that often get overlooked by society as a whole. If you’re with us June 20/21 at Central, we’ll be showing her interview at last year’s Willow Creek Leadership Summit. She has a unique story and a challenging example of what the Church in action can look like.

“Since inception, PEP has pioneered unprecedented growth and garnered national media attention. With an aggressive vision we are pressing on to further our innovative programs and staggering outcomes. However, recidivism rates are not the ultimate measure of PEP success. The real success comes from turning a tax consumer into a tax payer, a deadbeat dad into a supportive father, a societal terrorist into a community contributor, an influence of evil into a positive role model, a waste of talent into a man of realized potential. You can’t argue with those results.”

Reminds me of 2 Corinthians 5:16-19.

Jeremy: Tell us something odd/unique about you.

Catherine: I would guess that being a 32-year-old woman who loves prison is pretty unique! Also, I love contact sports. I was the only female on the wrestling team in high school, and I currently compete in Brazilian Jujitsu and submission grappling tournaments—nearly every month. I’ve always been on the aggressive side so this sport is a good fit for me!

Jeremy: Do you think people are born leaders or develop into leaders?

Catherine: That’s a great question, and I’ve been asking this lately in my personal development as a leader. In the nature versus nurture debate, I can argue both sides, but I believe it’s the combination of the two forces that shape most leaders. I think some people are born with strengths of personality that predispose them to be leaders, but without proper nurturing, discipline, and role modeling, that strong will could actually become an obstacle to becoming an effective leader. I believe that God uses circumstances, opportunities, mistakes and other people to influence, shape and mold us into leaders. The fun part is that leadership is not a goal you can reach, it’s a constant learning process that brings us closer to our own potential and closer to the person God wants us to be.

Jeremy: How can people put themselves into a position to influence culture?

Catherine: I don’t know that anyone who sets out on a path and says, “I am going to influence our culture,” will be successful in influencing much of anything … To me, I think it’s most important to first seek what God is calling you to do—the key word there is “do.” Instead of thinking up fancy ideas on how to change the way everyone views the world, go and do something that will lead to your desired outcomes. Then use your results as a testimony to get buy-in from others who are respected in that circle of influence. It’s hard to argue with results and before long, you’ll have a network of respected voices who will add credibility to your efforts. I could run around the country telling everyone that felons are entrepreneurial and that people should invest in educating them and hiring them, but without results, that’s just a hypothesis. Our organization has created results that people can invest in and that are hard to argue with, and I would like to believe that we have influenced people from all walks of life: politicians, academics, business leaders, incarcerated people, families of the incarcerated, etc. The goal started with equipping those in prison, and eventually led to an opportunity to be an advocate … not the other way around.

Jeremy: Why are you a follower of Jesus Christ?

Catherine: Because I tried things my way, and it didn’t work! I realized that His ways are better than mine, and I started to actively submit my life to Him. As a trained wrestler, you can image that submission wasn’t something that came easily for me, and it continues to be an area of focus for my spiritual growth. I have learned that when I do follow Him with all my heart, there is no better way. Jesus knows best.

Jeremy: What do you do personally to fuel your spiritual life?

Catherine: For me, an active spiritual life is all about discipline. It is so easy for the busyness of life to squeeze all the peace out of my life so I require strict accountability plans to ensure that I am prioritizing my “God time” each day. My quiet time is so important for allowing me to create a space I can enter into with God. That time keeps me grounded, focused and peaceful. I am not generally a person who can sit still or stay quiet for very long so you can imagine why accountability to maintain my “God appointments” is so important to me. It’s kind of like getting ready to do a long cardio workout … I always dread it beforehand, but it feels so great after it’s over (and even during it)! It’s a constant struggle for me to remain disciplined, so I put all the controls in place needed to keep me on track! I’ll get specific on accountability. Basically, I tell people what my plans are and make serious commitments to people who I admire. I have different people who hold me accountable for different things. I email this one guy every day after I do my God time. I would hate to disappoint him. If he doesn’t hear from me for a day, he emails me to find out what’s up. Sometimes, if a goal is particularly hard to reach, I put my money where my mouth is. I tell someone that if I don’t do such-and-such a thing by a certain date, that I owe them money—an amount that would be really painful to lose. I hate to lose, so I pretty much always achieve my goals. I also believe that fellowshipping with other believers and keeping a journal of God’s goodness and miracles is very important. I express myself in a raw way in my journals—I tell God how frustrated I am, when I’m not trusting him, how I messed up, the lessons I learned … whatever is on my heart. My journal helps me to analyze my thoughts and actions so I can try hard to get them in line with what God wants for me.

Jeremy: What is your hope for the future of the Church in America?

Catherine: My hope is that the church becomes Jesus to the world. Rather than just talking about and praising Jesus (which are both still important), I hope the church is able to also focus on doing the work of Jesus. It is amazing that there are so many homeless and hungry people even in the United States where we have so many resources. I just feel there are so many issues that churches and church members should tackle, and we don’t. We wait for the government or someone else to help … even when we feel the urge to act. The church should be the brightest light for hope and church people should be known for their efforts to be Jesus to their communities and world. My hope is that there would be a call to action for the church. That the church would be recognized not by the number of butts in the pews on Sunday morning, but for their service to their communities—results that draw unbelievers to Jesus. After giving a speech about PEP, sometimes people come up to me and say, “That’s a really nice program.” I say, “Thanks! Want to get involved?” Some of them say, “Oh, no, but I’m glad someone is doing it.” I’m not saying that prison ministry has to be everyone’s calling. But this sums up the opportunity for the Church: turn spectators into doers. Let’s get our hands dirty and just do something! We shouldn’t make spectators comfortable.

Jeremy: Should we abandon the use of the word “Christian” for a better term? If so, what?

Catherine: I don’t think we’ll ever be able to get away from the term “Christian,” but it’s time that people who call themselves Christians start redeeming that word for us all. There are so many negative connotations that are associated with Christians … too political, too judgmental, too closed-minded … it’s unfortunate that people have stopped associating Christians as being followers of Christ. When people ask me about my faith, instead of saying, “I’m a Christian,” I say, “I try to follow the ways of Jesus.” I don’t think that we can ever abandon the term Christian, but hopefully, those of us who follow the ways of Jesus can use our actions to draw people to Christ and to change the connotations of what it means to be Christian.

Jeremy: What blogs/websites do you regularly check?

Catherine: Wow, a question that totally outs me. I am not hip enough to be found on any interesting sites or blogs on a regular basis. I am just not involved in the social networking space, and I don’t even really know what Twitter is! Did I just lose cool points?

Jeremy: Which books have shaped your thinking?

Catherine: Here are some of my favorites. Most of these are from my first year in my walk with Jesus.

• The Wisdom of the Enneagram (Riso and Hudson) – helped me understand myself and how to work towards addressing my flaws and weaknesses.
• Money, Possessions and Eternity (Randy Alcorn) – emphasized an eternal perspective and an investment mindset of how to live life on earth.
• Purpose Driven Life (Rick Warren) – helped me realize it’s not about me, motivated me to find a way to give back.
• Halftime (Bob Buford) – the book is probably targeted to 40-year-old business men, telling them about turning success into significance, but I felt it really applied to me at the age of 25.
• Visioneering (Andy Stanley) – inspired me through the story of Nehemiah as I shaped the vision for PEP.
• Too Busy Not to Pray (Bill Hybels) – taught me how to develop an intimate prayer life and relationship with God.
• The Good News about Injustice (Gary Haugen) – shocked my soul and opened my eyes to the world being much bigger than me, put a moral imperative on my heart to take action to address injustice.
• The Bible (God & his friends) – does that count?
• Good to Great (Jim Collins) – taught me how to build a strategic organization.
• Autobiography of Martin Luther King, Jr. – inspired me to go and do it at a young age just as he did.
• Mother Theresa books – taught me the importance of serving God by serving others. Full of wisdom.
• David Hazard’s devotional books – my favorite is You Set My Spirit Free/John of the Cross – a compilation of devotionals that helped me learn and grow.

Jeremy: What music moves you?

Catherine: Anything with a good beat! I have a preference for techno and hip-hop music … particularly music written by PEP graduates. You should hear me drop the beat and rap!

Jeremy: Any other thoughts or advice?

Catherine: Good questions!

Click here to see more “Off the Record” interviews.